Yeah, it’s a major benefit the rails upgrade, but also a major draw back or the delay it may cause. I am not 100% sure how soon the network feature/product uplift work is planned to come into the pipe.
I am thinking about clarifying what API first means: starting the product uplifet project, with the react approach, we would focus first on cleaning up and clearly define what the products API endpoints (CRUD) would look like. This endpoint would have to serve both the new uplifted product page as well as external clients wanting to access the product catalog. After that we would build the new react app on top of this API. Quite a few things need to be decided in terms of how to build the react app
On the reactive side, we would have to upgrade rails and build the new uplifted product page using rails (one of the main points for me is that this is really the opposite direction of API because even the list of products would not be fetched from the json API as it is today with angular, so 0% API dogfooding).
API would become a product feature and would require specific initiatives and budget to drive it, potentially never coming. In this case an initiative to rebuild the products API would have to be prioritized.
I am clarifying this because it makes it clear this is not just a tech decision, it’s a strategic decision and will influence the way the product evolves.
I think I am done here, I am happy my last comment is about clarifying what API first is
In terms of the React path, there’s another very big question that I’m not sure we have made a concrete decision on (Maikel mentions it above), with these two options:
Option 1: ripping out the entire view layer and the controllers in admin area and replacing it with a large React frontend that’s essentially an entire new app, which sits on a bare API with nothing else left.
Option 2: keeping the view layer and replacing the existing UI components that are based on Angular with new React components that are rendered in the current pages.
These two options would need totally different approaches and would require a lot more thinking in terms of how we will fit either option around these different things like product uplift. Eg: which of these are we aiming for, and exactly how would we fit them around everything else?
On the dogfooding front, I think it actually would be possible to do this “Reactive Rails” thing in a way where the code is re-used across both the Reflex actions and API controller actions, but I’ll have to make a POC for that because approaching it in that way is not implicit in StimulusReflex itself and there are not clear examples of what I mean that are readily available.
Essentially: it’s entirely possible (and in fact preferable) to make a lot of the Reflex controller actions very tightly adhere to REST. That is; each resource would have a corresponding Reflex controller, and all the actions in that controller would look like standard RESTful actions.
These Reflex actions also receive normal Rails
params objects as input, exactly as the API controllers would. So sticking to REST, the actual logic and code in each RESTful action would be identical in say
VariantReflex#update apart from the rendering at the end. In this case where every bit of code is identical except the rendering that happens afterwards, it would be very easy to directly share the code across all corresponding RESTful actions so the the same code is used in both places.
Anyway, I would need to make a POC to show an example of this.
The scope of these choices are less about Q1 of 2021 and more about what the next 5+ years will look like.
I am new here, but I found the conversation very interesting. I’ve been building React Apps for the last 5 years, I started with React 0.13 and moved along the way. I have built large apps with millions on LOC and multiple teams working on it (I was on of the main designers/architects of the app) and also small ones with smaller teams. As a new person into the conversation I would argue that if this is just a purely technical choice between two technologies, personal preference should be one consideration. The other things to consider is project goals (scalability, hiring/recruiting, ecosystem, timeline).
If this is a Rails Shop, as I can see from the github repo, the turbolinks and reflex look like a natural progression. I would argue that React provides a lot of benefits, but might not align with the goals.
Do you have a document or wiki that mentions what’s the purpose considering Reflex vs other front-end alternatives?
*I thing React is a great tool, but is not a Panacea. Pick the right tools to solve the right problems.
I won’t reiterate the arguments were brought so far. I want to highlight the con of having to wait until Rails 5.2 which would sit next to the product priorities we went over yesterday night that are currently in play or coming up next. @luisramos0 estimates seem even too optimistic to me.
I’d also like to mention that Stimulus and Github’s architecture was one of the options that came up in the discourse post about the FE tech which the team seemed to discard in favor of React. I don’t know if that was because we didn’t dig deeper or if we now have details we didn’t have back then.
Re dogfooding, I understand your point about reusing the business logic between API and reflex endpoints but the point about dogfooding the API is writing a client for it ourselves. That’s the only way to know if an API is well-designed: confront your decisions from pov of a consumer. If it fits OFN’s needs it’s highly likely it will cover 3rd parties’ needs.
My general opinion is that OFN will benefit from being on the stable side of tech adopting established technologies where the risk of our decisions is more predictable rather than X company or Y startups are using Z. I’d personally stick to the existing tech strategy as there’s more to it than just the particular language or framework we will use.
I am new here too and I have some questions to add to the thoughts here.
First, I think we should be clear of the product priorities and the compromises to it each decision would have. Does choosing StimulusReflect would have any drawbacks in UI/UX? Is it really that faster to develop and is load time that better or would it only be some marginal gains over React?
And tying the UI to the back-end wouldn’t make it even harder to upgrade the existing tech?
That’s a very interesting thread: each of you has many arguments, well presented. It’s a complex decision to make!
My 2 cents :
Generally, separate things in web development is a good idea. Having a complete separate application that runs outside the backend with an API can be an argument : such as for having a functional and up-to-date API ready for 3rd party clients. In the same way, having people dedicated to UI/UX and client-side issues can be a relevant way to work (closeness to the designer and working on a separate design system such as storybook, …).
Disclaimer: I’m a java/html-css fullstack developper who decided to move into a react frontend developper since 3 years ago ; I’m also involved in the recruitment process at OFN.
I want to throw my hat into ring. After much consideration I’m on the side of continuing with the current process and not switching strategy.
I feel this way because:
- I want us to be very clearly moving away from a private API and toward a public API in which the FE consumes everything and we dev everything in this approach
- I don’t think we can afford to wait until we get to Rails 5.2 to start the Product Uplift work. We need to leverage the investment so far and deliver this feature to our users.
- While I like the idea of the additional security of our BE devs being able to do FE dev more readily, I want us to move toward having BE and FE specialisms in the team. I’m ready to take the gamble that we will be able to fund this into the future.
I think I lean more and more this way (continuing with the current process) now as well… @Kirsten posted above about postponing a decision on hiring for another month, but that’s feeling like a long time (and another big pro-for-React/con-for-RRails).
Unless the POC from @Matt-Yorkley is completely stunning (or maybe even if it is), it just seems like the React strategy fits where we are now much better, even if the tech itself isn’t quite as good.
In regards to Rails 5 upgrades, I had a quick look at it today out of interest (#sundayhackday). After resolving 8 or 9 major issues in ~1.5 hours, I can now boot the app in Rails 5, navigate around all the pages, and almost all the functionality seems to be working already (shopfronts, maps, add to cart, bulk edit orders, etc).
I’d estimate completing the Rails 5 upgrade would take 10-15 hours at most, not 1.5 months. That would bring it to roughly a similar ballpark as the Rails 4.2 upgrade, which took ~17 hours.
15 hrs dev time. This is great.
As a tester and person on support I am not filled with the same confidence
I’m not that confident either. There’s also code review, discussions will arise, S2s will delay the upgrade even more with our current limited resources, etc.
still the difference between 1.5 months and 15 hrs dev time to get to testing stage is very significant surely!
Ok, so I’ve put up a Github repo with a bunch of StimulusReflex examples here: https://github.com/Matt-Yorkley/reactive-rails
I’ve added explanatory screencasts for the different branches in the repo to the wiki page here, which demonstrate both the live examples and the code: https://github.com/Matt-Yorkley/reactive-rails/wiki
Just read a comment on Reddit today where a project decided to start replacing all their frontend React code with StimulusReflex. Apparently they removed 30k lines of code and replaced it with 3k lines of code in the first PR…
ok so I know I’m not the target audience here, but I woke up thinking “we just need to make the call and go with React because we NEED to get our API shipshape and fast”. Now I am not so sure.
I think your last experiment with the API ‘Concern’ is a critical thing - I would love to know devs opinions on whether this approach would be adding hideous overhead / complexity, or it might be a direction that a lot of people end up taking to keep the ‘API-first-ness’ of having a separate front-end framework whilst jumping onto the apparent significant advantages of Reactive Rails
A couple of quick questions, apologies if these are dumb questions:
- The speed at which everything is working in these pages is partially / significantly due to the simplicity of the app and the data being handled I think? So applying this approach isn’t going to magically speed up all of our pages?
- If things like Notifications and messaging are that simple can we just do them? Is there something that makes implementing that little Notifications thing vastly complex within current OFN that means we would need this new setup to do it? and if so WHYYYYYYYY (sobbing - or is it just ‘priorities’?
- It seems like some combo of this and an actual API-first approach might get us some big wins very fast. For example, if we had a good Enterprise endpoint that included a few bits of extra info, seems like we could be building pages that work like this very very quickly - getting major UX improvements on our discovery issues without the complex zapier / airtable / extension / wordpress workarounds we’re currently using to do this, and looking at replicating in other places like Canada
- Could we start doing some things within different ‘apps’ that appear seamless and as one to the OFN user - like the StartinBlox people talked about, and as I am increasingly coming to understand within the Shopify space? If we could, could some of those new apps be built within new framework without needing to do the whole rails upgrade on the whole app first? i.e. we could do Discovery app that’s like a plug-in? same question goes for
- Could we start work on the Product uplift rebuild in Reactive Rails but as a slightly separate but integrated app, that uses the API to CRUD product / variant options? That way we could a) start now, b) consciously and deliberately develop the API to do so which enables c) setting us up for all the other use cases where people want to manage their products and variants from outside OFN e.g. Connection with Odoo
we NEED to get our API shipshape and fast
There was a big discussion thread with Luis and others about the API (in the #dev channel in Slack) recently, I’ll summarise a few bits from there:
- we already have lots of API endpoints covering a large part of the useful objects in the datamodel
- finishing it off a bit and making it usable would not require much dev effort at all (and we could do that at any time)
- the only exception to that is the checkout, getting it on the API would probably be a really large and complex bit of work, but rebuilding the admin area in React would not apply any API-first focus there anyway…
So updating the API for certain use-cases like Oodoo integration could just be a standalone bit of work which isn’t necessarily tied to everything else.
The speed at which everything is working in these pages is partially / significantly due to the simplicity of the app and the data being handled I think?
The other framework (LiveView) that’s now using the same strategy is hailing it as a whole new thing called “real-time apps”, where the updates are so much faster you don’t need loading spinners or placeholders any more. So to some extent; yes this example is quick because the app isn’t huge or complex, but the idea is you can get similar results in production, especially combined with some basic optimisations like Fragment caching and Russian-Doll caching, and in a lot of cases only a small bit of the page is re-rendered instead of the entire thing. The time between the user clicking something and the page being updated can be somewhere in the region of 10-50 milliseconds.
If things like Notifications and messaging are that simple can we just do them?
Live-chat and some of the instant-feedback stuff would need something like StimulsReflex, but a simple version of a notifications feature would be incredibly easy, yeah.
if we had a good Enterprise endpoint that included a few bits of extra info, seems like we could be building pages that work like this very very quickly
Adding an endpoint that returns enterprises with a few bits of data like that page requires is probably XS T-shirt size and could be done at any time. It’s not complex, maybe an hour or so of work including writing full spec coverage. In theory there’s nothing stopping us from doing that today, testing and merging it next week and including it in the next release…
On the upgrading front, I think even even if we go with React we’d get a lot of value from upgrading to Rails 5 (especially if it’s not very difficult). It added various things like enhanced concurrency handling (which is a problem we have currently) and additional support for using Rails as an API backend as well as support for global ID which enables some nice security-related enhancements when dealing with external clients.